Friday, September 27, 2013 | 52 comments

Mother of Four Stripped of Parental Rights on Orders of a Single, Biased Judge


Editor’s note: The following is a lightly-edited transcription of an interview with Vanessa Sommerfeld, a Utah mother of four whose parental rights were terminated. Her story suggests the existence of massive corruption on the part of state agencies. While it should be noted that hers is only one side of the story, her guilt or innocence is actually irrelevant to the larger issue discussed in this interview. As you’ll learn below, pending legislation can help prevent similar atrocities from occurring in Utah to people like Vanessa.

Libertas Institute: Please describe your story.

Vanessa Sommerfeld: My ex-husband Dana was involved in a lot of abuse during our marriage—financial, emotional, verbal, sometimes physical, and then it went into sexual abuse. He was addicted to pornography for most of our marriage. He couldn’t hold down a job, we went through bankruptcies… it was a nightmare. We never had a dime. We were always moving.

We had four kids together. When we separated, he began to stalk me. He would call me and harass me, would come over and not leave the house, and the kids and I had to move because he wouldn’t leave us alone. Then he followed me to that house, he’d come to where I worked, and basically did everything he could to make my life difficult. I was working a full time and a part time job 12 hours a day, having previously been a stay-at-home mom. I was going to school on top of that, and was a scout leader, lots of things.

So I had to get stalking injunctions and protective orders, and he would still just violate them. So I was working at a homeless shelter in St. George, and he started calling my work and harassing my employer to get a hold of me. So they set me up with the Erin Kimball Foundation which is a domestic violence foundation. They moved us into hiding. My husband couldn’t get to us because he didn’t have a vehicle—the police had impounded it.

He found out where I was now living because he knew where I was working. He borrowed friends’ cars to follow me. Shortly after that I remarried, but at the time I was dating this new husband, my ex-husband was still trying to get me back. He would send me letters trying to get me back, but when he found out I was engaged he started to look for somebody online to start dating.

He met a girl online who lived in Sandy, and he was in St. George, and after two weeks of knowing her (and only meeting in person once) they were engaged. She has muscular dystrophy. Basically, she’s completely disabled and in a wheelchair. He pretty much has to do everything for her; she can move only from her elbows down.

I believe their quick engagement was his way of trying to tell me that I shouldn’t marry my fiancée. I was planning on getting married at the end of December, and so he bumped his wedding up to the middle of December. They had known each other for about a month when they married.

LI: And you had your kids this entire time?

VS: Yes, full time. In fact, in our divorce decree he didn’t have visitation with the kids unless he was in counseling for his pornography and sexual addictions. There was limited access to the kids.

So he married this girl, and they ended up moving to Utah County. I never contacted him, but he continued to contact me, blaming me for everything. But he never really saw the kids. He would always make plans to see them, but then he’d never really follow through. Even when he got a visitation schedule he wouldn’t abide by it. He never saw the kids, and didn’t really want to have anything to do with them.

LI: What was your kids’ attitude towards their father? Did they want to see him?

VS: They didn’t care. They weren’t afraid of him or anything like that. If they went and saw him, they did, and if they didn’t, they didn’t. He just wasn’t really involved in their lives when we were married.

I ended up getting divorced from my second husband because of more abuse problems. On a rebound, you marry the same thing… My kids and I ended up moving to Utah County because our house went into foreclosure when he left. So we moved in with my family and were once against 20 minutes away from my ex-husband. He started harassing me all over again.

We were trying to build our life back up. So again, here I am in a hard position and [my ex-husband] starts the contention.

I was in school full time, my kids and I were in therapy, and I had my kids in all sorts of after-school programs: dancing, karate, girl scouts, boy scouts, ice skating, etc. We were trying to build our life back up. So again, here I am in a hard position and he starts the contention. Instead of being supportive—offering to watch the kids while I was in school, for example—he would make plans to have the kids and then break them.

He threatened to get my bishop involved, and started going through my parents. My parents can’t stand him, but they’ll never take it out on him; they take it out on me. So now he’s harassing my whole family. My sister and brother and their kids were all also living with my family, so there’s 11 of us in this house. He was pushing everybody’s buttons to stir the pot, and he was doing a good job at it.

So I actually want to the Division of Child and Family Services (DCFS) for help in February of 2007, I believe. I was starting to get abused in my family’s house (I grew up being abused, and it’s all I know). I was trying to find an “out” for my kids and I. I needed housing. I needed daycare so I could continue to attend school full time.

DCFS opened a case and talked to my kids. They all validated my story about my brother abusing them, but a couple months went by and I didn’t hear anything from them. Then in June I got a phone call from the case worker informing me that she was going to close the case (due to lack of evidence), but that in order to do that she needed to talk to my family. I told her that my family didn’t even know that I had gone to DCFS, and that if she talked to my family we would be homeless as a result.

Because I hadn’t filed a police report on my brother, DFCS didn’t offer me services such as emergency housing. I was in the “wrong” schooling so I couldn’t get day care help. I didn’t meet all of their little parameters for help. I had solicited my bishop for help, and he told my parents numerous times to kick my brother and sister out because they were enabling the problems. They wouldn’t do it.

I was trying to do everything I could to keep my kids and I out of this environment so that we could heal.

I had solicited help from community organizations as well, such as Turning Point at UVU. I was trying to do everything I could to keep my kids and I out of this environment so that we could heal. We were all in therapy, I was taking classes on domestic violence, I was trying to better myself so that we weren’t in this anymore.

So the DCFS worker came to my house, and I later arrive home from school to find my parents livid, obviously. On top of that my ex-husband had just sent another three-page email to my parents. As the worker talked to my parents upstairs, I was downstairs folding laundry and crying, because I knew what was coming. My dad came downstairs and started yelling and cussing at me, telling me to “fix the problem.”

We ended up homeless that night. Me and my children, ages 4, 6, 9, and 11.

LI: Why did they kick you out? Did they just not like you dragging them into it?

VS: They like to keep things under the rug and don’t want the exposure on them. And, it’s because of the dysfunction of my family.

I had $40 to my name. We found a motel that let us stay there for $40 for one night. I called my soon-to-be second ex-husband telling him I needed money. When he took off 6-7 months earlier he had emptied the bank account. He started screaming at me. So I took my kids to the woman’s shelter in Provo. I already had PTSD and was getting treated for that. I was scared, overwhelmed, and didn’t know anybody in Utah County except for my family, and I couldn’t and wouldn’t go back there. I was a wreck. I was done.

I had these four little kids and I couldn’t even function anymore. So I get to the shelter where I need help and the volunteer workers were rude! I’m thinking: how can you be so cold and malicious when you have these traumatized women and children coming in? One of them was as mean as can be, and it just pushed me over the edge. It was the last straw. I went out to my car, and I took 5 or 6 of my prescribed antidepressant pills. I was done.

They called the ambulance and took me to the hospital. DCFS took my kids into foster care for three days and then gave them to my first ex-husband, their dad. That’s how my involvement with DCFS really started.

I created a reunification plan with DCFS that basically required me to do things I had pretty much already been doing—continue therapy, finish school, get a place to live, get a job, and then have a psychological evaluation. I started the plan and worked through the contracted agency, Wasatch Mental Health. I also had an assigned public defender who wasn’t worth anything.

During this time I was having weekly supervised visits in the DCFS office. They were hard. But we had a great time, and the case worker would report that the kids and I loved each other, that we got along well, that we miss each other, the visits were appropriate, etc. At the end of the visits, my 6-year-old daughter would have panic attacks, like separation anxiety attacks. It would take us 45 minutes to get her off of me. She didn’t want to let go, didn’t want to leave, didn’t want to go back with her father. “Traci’s mean!” she would say. (Traci is the step-mom.) She would pull my hair, rip my clothes, hide under the table—she wanted to come home with me. It was bad.

So the kids would go home with Traci and Dana who then began to report to the case worker that all sorts of inappropriate stuff had gone on during the visit, even though they weren’t even there. And the case worker was there, who reported our good behavior. Nothing was wrong. But Traci would make claims with broad statements and could never give examples. So it got to the point where the case workers weren’t even letting me give the kids goodbye hugs. Any close contact with my children was prohibited.

Shortly thereafter, I got a knock on my door (I was living with a friend). It was the police. They said they wanted to talk to me about my kids. I had no clue what was going on. They put me in an interrogation room for a couple hours while this cop is telling me how I sexually abused my daughters. I told them it wasn’t true, explained what was going on (with my ex-husband and his wife), told them he was addicted to porn, that the FBI had investigated him at one point for child pornography… it was all their doing. I stated that I had never touched my children inappropriately, and that whatever issues the cops said my children have didn’t happen when they were with me. They were stupid things too, like “we found toilet paper on the bathroom floor” or “they’re hiding toilet paper in their bedrooms”—ridiculous things that the cops claimed were signs of sexual abuse. They claimed that my daughter had sexualized behavior and was dancing inappropriately. How does a seven-year-old dance like that? Viewed by a woman in a wheelchair, perhaps anything could be seen that way. But they were showing her all sorts of movies like High School Musical with dancing, and she loves that kind of stuff, so she was repeating what she saw. All of a sudden it’s claimed that I’m sexually abusing her.

LI: But they presented no actual evidence to support the allegation?

The officers were treating her allegations as evidence.

VS: No, none. Every sentence in the police report is: “Traci says…” It’s a he-said/she-said scenario. The officers were treating her allegations as evidence. I was arrested right in that room, with the officer telling me “I believe you did this.” It was all off of what Traci said. The girls had been interviewed and physically inspected at the Children’s Justice Center and found no evidence—none. They claimed that I had placed my hand on their upper chest, but parents do that with their kids all the time. The video recordings were appalling to watch because there was nothing in them to support the allegations.

I had another run-in with the police based on allegations made by Dana and Traci, where they claimed that I was with the girls at my parents’ house. It was very specific, saying that we had watched certain TV shows, had cookies, etc. The cops were about to arrest me again for violating the no contact order on my girls—all based on Dana and Traci’s word alone. But my boss was able to provide evidence showing I was logged into the system at work and therefore not at my parent’s house during the time they claimed I was. Even then the cops were still saying that they didn’t believe the evidence we had provided.

We discovered later in the DCFS report that Traci had begun to push for adoption of my children. She had had my kids for only five months.

LI: As a prerequisite, adoption would require termination of your parental rights, correct?

VS: Exactly. Traci can’t have kids of her own, and she grew up in an LDS community where family and kids are what it’s all about. Her dad works for the LDS Church. Their family is very big on image—very big on image. I think she needs that to make her feel good, because of her own disabilities and issues. She needs to feel like Dana isn’t going to leave her, because she’d be in a world of hurt. They kind of feed off of each other. Dana needs her to put on the image that he’s a good person and isn’t abusive, because look, he can take care of this woman in a wheelchair, using her as a prop. So they have this very bad co-dependent relationship.

So the suspicion is that the adoption of my children was the plan before the allegations against me started. Throughout all the reports, it was noted that Traci wanted to adopt them. But at this point I’m still working on my reunification plan and have done everything on it. Six months into it, I’ve completed the plan. But there were pending accusations against me, so I didn’t get my kids back. The DCFS supervisor had the gall to come up to me and say, “If you just admit to doing this, you’ll get your kids back. We’ll get you into a 12-week program, and you’ll get them back. If you deny it, you’ll never have them.”

But I didn’t do it, and I’m not admitting to something I didn’t do.

So we get to May 2008 when it’s time for my reunification to be over, and DCFS comes into me and says: “If you don’t give Dana full custody today, we’re going to seek termination of your parental rights.”

LI: Of course, the theoretical basis of the entire judicial system is that an individual is innocent until proven guilty. Do you feel, with your experience specifically or with DCFS cases generally, that that is true?

You’re guilty until proven innocent, and you never can prove that. You can never dig yourself out of it once you’re in.

VS: No. You’re guilty until proven innocent, and you never can prove that. You can never dig yourself out of it once you’re in. So now I’m in the criminal for the accusations, and juvenile (civil) court with my kids.

My public defender recommended I give Dana custody so I would still have my parental rights and be able to see my boys. That way we could still fight. So I gave my ex-husband full custody of the kids in June 2008.

I was fighting the criminal stuff at the same time. I had taken a polygraph at the Utah County District Attorney’s office for the criminal stuff and passed it. I was still trying to prove my innocence there. I paid the attorney who kept continuing the hearing, which I never had. Over and over, he just drained my money. So after I relinquished custody, the DA approached me with a plea agreement. They said they had no evidence for the sexual abuse charges, but they were going to prosecute me for child neglect because I had taken the antidepressant pills. So I pled down just to get out of the system (I had never been in the system before, and always assumed it worked), and ended up with a felony. What’s odd is that I had four kids with me, but I was only charged with two counts of child neglect, one for each of the girls. The boys, who were there, there’s nothing. How does that work?

I was supposed to be on probation for three years after the felony but after a year had it dropped because of good behavior. Even my probation officer called the whole thing garbage. He couldn’t believe it.

I was also able to get the felonies reduced to misdemeanors, but it still has negative consequences. It’s affected my schooling. I couldn’t get my DOPL license to become a massage therapist because of the felonies and “poor moral character.” It stopped me in every way. I spent all that time and thousands of dollars in school, and wasn’t allowed to use it. It was hard to find new employment; even the temp agencies didn’t like the felonies on my record. Luckily I still had the job I did when it all went down, and my boss knew everything and was cool about it.

So Dana has full custody of the kids, and I’m able to see the boys on supervised visits through ACAFS. So I’m having to pay $50 an hour to see my own kids. Then I found out that Dana and Traci placed my older daughter, now seven years old, in foster care. In their report they said, word for word, that “we don’t want to be responsible for her anymore.” So instead of giving her to somebody in my family, they put her in foster care at the Utah Youth Village — a group home where she’s with girls who really have been traumatized and abused.

Prior to this, in March 2008, Dana and Traci put my daughter on medication like Zoloft and Risperdal—an adult antipsychotic not FDA approved for children. But Wasatch Mental Health is just loading her up on all these drugs because of her trauma. The doses are being changed around as are the medications, and that’s going to affect a seven-year-old. At Wasatch, the therapists are 20-year-old interns claiming that they are experts and that they know I’m guilty. This actually violates their procedures which say that interns shouldn’t take on DCFS cases.

So in the group home she starts getting kicked in the stomach, concussions, abused, she would run away, etc. Because of this I got a court order to have the girls go see Dr. Kevin Gully, a forensic expert at Primary Children’s. I paid $3-4,000 for the forensic interview with Dr. Gully. I went, so did my ex, and then the girls were interviewed. The purpose of this was to determine whether I had sexually abused the girls or not. It was a lengthy process and after a couple months he produced a very lengthy report. It was in my favor. It said things like, “Why would the mother put the kids in therapy if she’s the one abusing them?” His hypothesis in the report is that the allegations were put into the girls’ heads by other parties through false memories—brainwashing.

Just as Dr. Gully’s report is about done, I received a call from the Orem police telling me that I needed to come in. Evidently Dana and Traci had made accusations that I had now sexually abused my boys. My name was cleared from the accusations about the girls, and Dana and Traci hadn’t got what they wanted. I wasn’t in jail, I wasn’t charged with sexual abuse, and I have a court-ordered report saying that Dr. Gully didn’t think I did this. So now the boys are thrown into the fire.

So the Guardian ad Litem John Moody proposed bringing my boys to see Dr. Gully. I thought that was great, and got some money to pay for it again. But as the report on the girls came back in my favor, Moody started back-tracking and didn’t want the boys to go through it. So there was a court order that Moody wanted and was pushing for, but once the report came back saying the mom didn’t abuse the girls, he changed his mind.

LI: So do you claim that the Guardian ad Litem is not an impartial defender?

[My children’s attorney] was going along with everybody else on this train that can’t be derailed, heading in the direction of trying to terminate my parental rights.

VS: My GAL is spineless—spineless. He’s been the GAL for all my kids since the beginning. He can’t stand up for anything. He is awful. He’s going along with everybody else on this train that can’t be derailed, heading in the direction of trying to terminate my parental rights. It was a plan that they were sticking to, no matter what evidence was brought forward that said otherwise. They couldn’t backtrack and say the abuse didn’t happen, because that would make them look bad and open them up for lawsuits.

LI: So not only is DCFS proceeding under the suspicion that you’re guilty unless you can prove otherwise to their satisfaction, but according to your claim they are not letting the investigation of facts determine the outcome. In your opinion, they were seeking a specific outcome and rejecting facts that didn’t fit?

VS: Well, I couldn’t prove my innocence because I was not allowed to have a jury trial.

I got another polygraph from an FBI guy, I got other forensic evaluations. I was forking out all of this money for independent evaluations that were all in my favor, but DCFS and the juvenile court judge, Mary Noonan, wouldn’t even look at them because they didn’t come from their state-contracted agencies.

So the Orem police interviewed me and my boys, and I walked out and never heard from them again. Unlike the other officers, they saw right through the allegations. That irritated my ex-husband, so he took my son, 13 years old at this time, down to the police station without a lawyer and had him arrested on grounds that he had sexually abused his sisters. Their theory was now that I had sexually abused my son, so he had abused his sisters.

My son produced a letter (that Traci helped him write), without an attorney, in which he claimed that I had done these things. They put him in the Slate Canyon jail for a couple weeks and then transferred him to a treatment center in Cedar City. So at 13 he was charged with a felony, having been convinced that he had done these things.

LI: So by this time, your ex-husband had gotten rid of your oldest daughter and son.

VS: And five years later, that daughter is still in foster care.

So Dana and Traci filed a petition to terminate my parental rights. It was stalled because Dr. Gully (the forensic expert at Primary Children’s) died. He was found hung right after he got my subpoena to have him come testify.

LI: What was the outcome of the investigation into his hanging?

VS: Suicide…

Once my son arrived at the treatment center, he started saying that he didn’t abuse his sisters and that I didn’t do it. For the five months he was there, according to the therapist, he was (and this is word for word) “consistently inconsistent” with his story about the abuse. Nothing made any sense. He was claiming that his father and step-mom told him to say those things. He said he did it to gain the trust of his parents.

He requested a polygraph to prove his innocence and my own. He asked Judge Noonan that directly, including his therapist and Guardian ad Litem. Everybody shoots him down for months, not giving in to his request. I finally was able to get one court ordered in September 2009, and nobody followed through with it. In fact, my son later testified that he didn’t even know about it—nobody had told him that the order existed.

LI: So at this point you’re facing termination of your parental rights.

VS: Yes, we’re going full force into it. We deposed everybody and have so much evidence against Wasatch Mental Health, Utah Youth Village, the Guardian ad Litems, Dana and Traci, that it’s unparalleled. I could sue everybody at this point and win. There’s so much corruption, and we have it all documented.

We asked Judge Noonan to recuse herself a couple of times—this woman is the former head of DCFS!

We asked Judge Noonan to recuse herself a couple of times—this woman is the former head of DCFS! She refused. Obviously she’s slightly biased to DCFS. Nobody would budge and admit a conflict of interest.

So I wanted to take the system on and get my kids back, and defend myself against the termination. We had so much evidence. There’s no way anybody in their right mind would be able to look at that and say that I had did what I was accused of. There’s no way.

LI: By “right mind” you mean somebody who was actually impartial, correct?

VS: Yeah, an impartial judge and/or a jury.

I had a 20 day trial in the juvenile court system. That was absolutely unheard of, and my case was the talk of the Utah County court system. Most cases are just in and out. Half of the evidence we asked for from DCFS, we didn’t get. Videos “disappeared” or were destroyed after being subpoenaed.

The state of Utah has spent over a million dollars on my case, to take away my parental rights. Over a million dollars. And I had one expert witness come in who said that even convicted sex offenders serving life in prison see their kids. They don’t get their rights terminated. The witness said I was an anomaly, saying “I have never seen anything like your case before, it’s the most messed up case I’ve ever seen.” Nobody has been able to look at my case objectively and side with the state.

The state of Utah has spent over a million dollars on my case, to take away my parental rights. Over a million dollars.

On December 14, 2011, the judge read the termination order for an hour and twenty minutes. It was hell. She went through the same “facts” over and over and over, and all of it was skewed. All the “facts” were twisted. None of it was true.

LI: Were you given an opportunity to say goodbye to your children after your parental relationship to them was legally severed?

VS: Oh, no. No.

During this trial my oldest daughter was living with Dana and Traci again, for those few months. But once my rights were terminated, they put her right back into the group home. So they put on a show and that’s it. My daughter testified three different times that she was afraid that if she wanted to see me, Dana and Traci would put her back into foster care.

My son testified that he thought I had abandoned him, that I didn’t love him. He didn’t know that I had done a polygraph, he didn’t know that I was fighting for him. Dana and Traci had filled their heads with all of these things. Traci was telling my children, and it’s in the reports, that I was going to kill her and kidnap my children.

LI: So basically, you believe that Dana and Traci brainwashed your children.

VS: Yeah, and the state helped.

LI: How long has it now been since you’ve seen your children?

VS: I haven’t seen my girls since November of 2007, so almost six years. I haven’t seen my boys since January of 2009, so three and a half years.

LI: Did you have the option to appeal Judge Noonan’s decision?

I had already spent over $250,000 since 2007 fighting to get my kids back.

VS: I tried to appeal. I didn’t have another $150,000. I had already spent over $250,000 since 2007 fighting to get my kids back. We had some really solid issues for our appeal case, but there has only been one case of terminated parental rights in juvenile court that has been overturned in the appellate court.

So I started the appeal process, but the state’s attorneys drowned us in motions trying to use every bit of money I had. They were drowning me in paperwork to rack up my bills. I was also told that it would take over a year just to get it going.

During my termination hearing, my lawyer was horrified. He kept wanting to get up and walk out. He was so appalled at how the judge was acting and kept saying, “we’ve gotta leave, we gotta get out of here.” But he said the judge would have us arrested if we walked out for contempt of court. I don’t know how many times he about got arrested during that trial. He came unglued.

LI: He was upset at the apparent injustice?

VS: Oh, yeah. He said, “I hate Utah County. What is this, Mayberry?” There was no justice.

So Traci adopted my children in June of 2012. But they put my oldest daughter back in foster care, and I don’t know where she is. I think she tried to kill herself in February.

LI: What are your thoughts on one individual alone having the authority to terminate a person’s parental rights?

One person should not be allowed to have total control over your family.

VS: When it comes down to such a fundamental, basic right… It’s not like a car that’s being taken away from me. I gave birth to these children. They will always be a part of me. It’s not something you can just give and take. These are basic rights to raise my children and at least have contact with them. One person should not be allowed to have total control over your family.

LI: Do you consider your case an exception to the rule?

VS: No. I know many mothers whose rights were terminated, or who are in the middle of it as we speak. There’s one mother with the same Guardian ad Litem and same judge. She was in the same boat, where the ex had made unfounded accusations against her.

LI: Representative Christensen is promoting legislation that would allow the option of a jury trial in cases where the state is attempting to legally terminate a person’s parental rights. Why do you think this bill is important?

VS: If I had had a jury trial, I would never have lost the rights to my kids. Never. Good citizens, good people, are not going to sit by and watch all this corruption go on. They don’t have the financial incentives like the judges, Guardian ad Litem, and DCFS do. And having several people deliberate on a decision rather than one person is clearly better. They would be impartial, whereas those in the current system are absolutely not.

This is about job security for those working for the state. They have to do what’s asked of them. If you look at the 2011 audit of the Guardian ad Litem, they’re pulled from the shallow end of the legal pool. GALs have a lower skill level than most attorneys because of the pay. We’re not getting very bright, strong GALs according to the state’s own audit. These people don’t understand, or don’t want to look at the facts, and they don’t want to fight against the system. It’s not in their best interests to do so. They’re focused on job security. Like most people, they would rather go with the flow.

LI: Finally, if you had two minutes to speak to the entire Utah legislature, what message would you convey?

VS: We need to start protecting families instead of destroying them. The system is hurting, rather than helping. In my case, I came forward asking for help, but none was given. Why aren’t we doing more in-home services to support people in improving their lives? Others don’t ask. Had I had a little help when I needed it, we wouldn’t be in this situation today.

There is no financial interest in reunification. The state does not get any federal funding if they reunify kids with their families. Continued funding from the federal government requires keeping families broken and apart. Money is driving most of this.

Once you get in the system, people assume you’ve done something wrong. You’re not considered innocent until proven guilty. It’s automatically implied that you’re a bad person. The truth is that innocent people get sucked into the system all the time, convicted of things they didn’t actually do.

Ultimately, we need to educate people on the tactics being used by this system. We need to highlight the financial incentives that exist and stop them. It’s become “cash for kids,” basically. Our kids have a price tag on their heads. And it needs to stop.


46 comments
awbrey79
awbrey79

Wow, neither you , or your husband should have those kids. You sound like a classic boarder-line personality, and so does he. My heart breaks for these children, and just how badly you both have failed them...

BarbaraAndrea
BarbaraAndrea

Words can not describe how grateful I am to Dr Lawrence for helping me put my family back together. I was in a desperate situation prior to talking with him. My husband and I were on the verge of separation and divorce! Dr Lawrence helped to put my family back to together and bring much needed peace to my home.Thank you very much sir drlawrencespelltemple@hotmail.com

BrittBax
BrittBax

This isn't just in cases of social services. This is the court system in general. The state will do anything to "win" even tear your family to shreds emotionally and financially. I was arrested for assault. My husband and I were arguing, I threw a half empty box of chicken broth across the room (NOT at him) and he threw me out of the front door. The police were called and my husband lied because he was afraid of being arrested for physically grabbing me. He told them I threw the broth at him and left to call the police. Doesn't even make sense. My cell phone was right there and I was barefoot in pajamas. They believed him and arrested me. My bail was $600, they are making me wear an ankle monitor$250/week, they can't prove their case even if my husband testifies it's his original statement against mine. He can't retract and tell the truth because he will be arrested for false statements. They have subpoenad my 8 year old daughter and 2 1/2 month old son. The baby can't testify so that's just stupid. And they are willing to traumatized my little girl on the stand. They called DHS on us, they found nothing out of place and aren't taking any action, even stating themselves that this just sounds like an argument that got out of hand. Still, trying to get our children taken from us just to make your case look good?! Even the DHS caseworker saw that. It is sickening. We are broke, terrified, and guilty until proven innocent over flying Chicken broth. This is NOT a case of an abused man, woman, or children. They are hurting families, not helping them.

JohnScott3
JohnScott3

Hello theodora. Please feel free to email me. Johnscott78@gmail.com

JohnScott3
JohnScott3

Theodora, I am very sorry. If u are willing to do the work I can send some things that may help. Please feel free to email me... johnscott78@gmail.com

Theodora Anthis
Theodora Anthis

I am so very sorry. I feel for you. I had my parental rights to my four children terminated in May of 2007. Of course I did not have as much money to spend so after a few thousands of dollars through a private attorney I was thrown to a court appointed attorney that did not do her job. Their allegations were false, incomplete and unreal. It seemed like a fiction movie. More like a horror one. The damage that this has caused my children by getting molested, beaten, starved and so many more things the human mind could not even imagine. I appealed my case a few months after the termination. I am still waiting... While my children had been adopted or the agency's decision had already been taken. I was lied to, threatened, blacmailed and mistreated by DCFS in Utah County. I also need help with my case but no one seems to even care enough. I wrote the newspapers, channels, some talk shows and even the White House. An attorney back then told me that I had a huge lawsuit against then if I could only come up with $50,000. I am still waiting for something to happen yet everything seems to be falling apart in my world all of these years.

JohnScott3
JohnScott3

I'm not an attorney, but please free to contact me and I will forward you the paperwork that I filed to have my state supreme court, federal court, etc.

JohnScott3
JohnScott3

The same happened to me in Provo, Utah. Except my ex-wife attacked a friend who went to court with me. I got a protective order for my kids and me and then my divorce case judge, Claudia Laycock took my kids and ordered me have no contact with them.

CHKD
CHKD

I totally believe this story had to have happened because it's now 2015 and in the fall of 2014 we had this happen to us - same Judge and the same GAL! - I was shocked to find this particular story posted here -- the similarities in proceedings are just uncanny! - Even though this mother's situation is different than ours , the end justifies the same -- the truth, this should NOT have happened! Please read our story that is VERY recent - we're grieving still and fighting this actively : https://www.redbowwhitebox.com/bringthedabbgirlzhome-15120218838/804

AshleyPynePeterson
AshleyPynePeterson

I have the children in states custody now, that I am fighting to get back. Last March my husband and I borrowed a car to move with and happened to get pulled over, and the police decided to search this vehical. Well, somewhere under a seat they found some drug paraphernalia, so we both were charged even though we had no criminal history with drugs. Beings or kids were with us DCFS came to do a well check and they said everything was fine and were closing the case, that is until the case worker spoke with the attorney General who told them to make us do drug tests etc. We told them we would not do anything until we spoke with a lawyer, and or lawyer advised us not to do anything with out a court order, so we told them we would be happy too take one with a court order. Instead they showed up at my house with a warrant to take my kids into custody. I was mortified. How can they just take my kids over a paraphernalia ticket, and no other previous drug history? I had not even been to my first court appearance yet. Luckily, they let them stay with my parents, and we had to leave. No one could understand how they could do that. On our first day in court, I was ill in the hospital but my husband went, and during that proceeding they made extreme false allegations. The attorney General, told my husband that the state has dealt with me before, and that. I had actually relinquished my rights to a baby before I was eighteen, and been in and out of multiple drug rehab centers, with significant drug history. My husband came unglued, telling them I never had a baby that the state took, nor have I ever been to oa rehab our had problems with drugs. She argued with him telling him he has just been lied to, but she knows for a fact. They ended up serving us with the papers o off all the reasons why they had the right to come take my kids, and ask those false things were it. On the back page it said that everything had to be correct and proven to be true or DCFS and the attorney General would be criminally held responsible. Off course they found out they made a BIG mistake, and had me confused with someone else. By that time they had already dragged my name threw the mud, and slandered me. All I received was a apology and a new document with the correct facts. So, really what happened was the attorney General mistakes me for someone else, and wrote up a warrant to take my children without verifying any of it, and that's why my kids were removed. They should have been returned to me, but that would mean they were admitting fault, and leaving room for me to sue. This is one big joke. I see kids every day week they could be helping, and instead they want to take good, happy families and tear them apart. How can one person determine how a entire families life should end up? How can they walk in my home over false allegations, that were not verified, and take my children from there parents? They have done the most harm and abuse my children have we've been put threw. I live in utah county and go to the 4th district court's as well, and it is a joke there. It looks like human trafficking to me. What is going on is not okay and it needs to be stopped. How do they get away with this? Parenting my children is my God given right, and if my children are not in any danger or being neglected, they have no reason to be there.

cboyack
cboyack moderator

@AshleyPynePeterson Ashley, would you contact me at cboyack@libertasutah.org — would like to chat with you about this. Thanks.

all
all

I live in price utah. The dcfs syetm and the juvenile court judge (jahanson) is so corrupt. I was never a troubleded person never in jail. 1st conviction, and hear say. And then the judge tricks u inti saying the wrong things to put yr foot in yr mouth.. I was not once offered reunification. I never wanted my kids ripped away from me. My rights, parental rights taken away. I never signed them away. Within 60 days of the case they already were talking about adoption... I did all they wanted me to do. The judge didnt care to hear what the good I was proving....... WHAT R THEY DOING WITH OUR CHILDREN? KID TRAFFIKING?

She is a liar
She is a liar

She is a liar. She either really believes her lies to be the truth or she knows she is lying and is ill. I happen to know her and her family personally. She is the second child of 4. The other 3 siblings say they were raised in a normal home where absolutely no abuse existed. Vanessa claims she was raised with abuse and it is all she knows, yet no other sibling would corroborate that. She leaves out all of the things that she did that have lead to her being in the position she is. She needs to take some responsibility. I know she and her second husband once dropped her kids off at her parents home and she left and didn't tell them where she was going or how long she would be away for. The parents didn't know what to do so they enrolled the kids in school for almost a month when Vanessa and husband #2 decided to be parents again and returned. As for the "sibling abuse", that is absurd. The siblings simply wanted nothing to do with her because of how she was. Avoiding some one or being unfriendly is NOT abuse. I don't doubt that some people have been ran over by the system but this is not the case. This story is being told by a dishonest person. If all the things SHE did were told honestly she would be ashamed and proven to be a liar.

This is Ridiculous
This is Ridiculous

Where to start... I work in family law and it is VERY difficult to lose parental rights. Incredibly so. As it should be. The court doesn't take issues like this lightly. The trial was more than 20 days long for heavens sake. Murder trials don't last that long. This story is full of more BS than a dairy farm. The system works fine. Don't any of you think that it is strange that supposedly everyone was wrong but her? Do you really think a government that can't get much of anything right was able to work together so perfectly to pull this off? If she was truly so wronged the rulings could easily be overturned at the next level. Think clearly before you all start forming a mob to burn down the court house. 

BrittBax
BrittBax

I can't speak to her case. Only my personal experience. We live in CO and my husband has been arrested several times because he had an ex who claimed he hit her, no marks, witnesses, nothing. She wasn't even there to speak to the police on one occasion. He had to be bailed out and go through months of court proceedings and financial burden for nothing to come of the charges. This happened several times and they arrested him each time because she said so. 4 years later and finally after fighting and providing evidence that she was stalking us she was charged with harassment, 14 counts of violating protection orders, and stalking. She has been in Pueblo's secure mental hospital for a year now. The reason people can relate to this story is because more and more often the court is taking on an attitude of guilty until proven innocent and more often than not leaving families behind in financial and emotional ruin without so much as saying sorry for putting you through hell solely based on what that person said.

stop court corruption
stop court corruption

@This is Ridiculous Really?  Pull your head out of the sand and collect another dollar from the corrupt court system!  I am watching a friend go through this corruption right now!  She's a good mother and anyone that knows her would tell you that.  Her life was her kids.  She was busy trying to support her kids, because their dead beat father won't work and she couldn't afford these high priced and do nothing attorneys.  She doesn't do drugs, never been in jail....nothing!!!!  So, he is losing the family home to foreclosure, he has a terrible porn problem, has an uncontrollable temper, but yet the judge thinks that she isn't doing enough to encourage the kids to have a good relationship with their dad, so he is trying to strip her of her parental rights!  It is horrible what these courts are doing!  They shouldn't have the freedoms that they have to ruin innocent peoples lives and screw up families!


This is Ridiculous
This is Ridiculous

Where to start... I work in family law and it is VERY difficult to lose parental rights. Incredibly so. As it should be. The court doesn't take issues like this lightly. The trial was more than 20 days long for heavens sake. Murder trials don't last that long. This story is full of more BS than a dairy farm. The system works fine. Don't any of you think that it is strange that supposedly everyone was wrong but her? Do you really think a government that can't get much of anything right was able to work together so perfectly to pull this off? If she was truly so wronged the rulings could easily be overturned at the next level. What you don't know is that this case was somewhat notorious and the "victims" issues (that she conveniently leaves out) were truly disturbing. Think clearly before you all start forming a mob to burn down the court house. 

Wade
Wade

As a graduate of the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism I find this article disturbing. Some of you who made comments on this piece of 'journalism' have truly shown your intelligence. This article doesn't even offer the other side of the story. It isn't fair to present this kind of story without presenting both sides. This is the problem with today's media. Anyone can say anything and no one bothers to check the facts. In the article it mentions 'guilty until proven innocent.' The woman being interviewed doesn't like being viewed as guilty before being proven innocent, so why is the same being done to the other parties involved. The author of the article should answer that.

Melinda Sleight
Melinda Sleight

Absolute travesty!  This woman is amazing in her resiliency, her refusal to give up against such stacked odds.  I only wish the doubters and detractors at some point in their lives would have to walk a mile in her shoes, in circumstances when everyone turns against them and it is all uphill.  I think she's made of fire and steel and great heart.  And there are more like her who despite outrageous circumstances carry on.  Makes me feel guilty for having lived such an easier life.  

Andrea
Andrea

I have a very good friend who lost her kids in February through just such a situation like this.  Her abuser was a serial cheater with social skills and charmed the first social worker, and it all went downhill from there.  In her case, her convicted abuser was spending time after hours with the social worker in his apartment, and my friend was getting calls from the social worker's husband and boss, trying to locate the social worker, because it was 9 to 10 p.m., and she had never got home from work.  The social worker was at the abuser's house and "left her phone in the car."  She sent the psychological evaluator a horrible letter about my friend, which got incorporated into the evaluation--totally against protocol.  The author of this story above is completely correct about the assumption of guilt, how they systematically drain you of money, then ream your trial through with a gag order, so you can't ask for help, or you go to jail.  

Donna Max
Donna Max

I truly hope that more people listen to this story - As a talk show host I interviewed Vanessa, along with other abused women,  on my show several

times.  I became very interested in this case and watched as it progressed.

Vanessa was a VICTIM over and over and over again. She got locked into the system and it snowballed way out of proportion; and because it was so

horrendous it seemed as if everyone had to play their part to keep it quiet and as a result she and her family suffered terribly.  I have been absolutely amazed that she held it all together.  There are many people involved in this case who need to be held accountable and she needs to get her family back and be reimbursed for the debt  and emotional abuse she and her children have  had to incur.  This is a tragedy of enormous proportions!! Its an example of Government overreach and intrusion into our lives. No one person should ever be allowed to split up a family and especially one who obviously had a huge conflict of interest as did this Judge.  What's the old saying?  A lie can travel l00 miles while  truth is still trying to  get on its shoes.  I saw NO ONE give Vanessa the benefit of the doubt - she was simply guilty in their eyes because others SAID SO.  Somehow this wrong must be righted!!!!!  I want you to remember something - no one is perfect, and - I for one - know that when one suffers so much abuse they will stumble and lose a degree of functionality for a time but that does not mean that she caused the problem or enhanced it. Her triumph is that she stayed strong and kept fighting for herself and her family. Before you throw stones -. try to imagine yourself in her shoes.  This puts me in mind of the holocaust - because the abuse was sooo horrendous people chose to turn a blind eye and disbelieve and  evil grew even more powerful.    Donna Max

CliffordMichael
CliffordMichael

The state is far too involved in family management. This should be a function of the family and the church, not a function of any form of government. The government should safeguard our rights, not control our family disputes.

ronadair
ronadair

For all those asserting that "there are two sides to every story", please remember that this is the entire point of the article, and of any action to oppose DCFS and CPS nationally.  Those whose eyes are open are eagerly fighting for more accountability and transparency in this perverted system of power.  The DCFS operates under a shroud of secrecy and unchecked power, and what they say, goes.  This is not to say that every single social worker is evil, but only that due to the non-transparent and unlawfully binding nature of the organization's powers, there is a high occurrence of abuse from the system to families.  "We've all heard the stories" is a phrase I wish I could say to more veracity — it is unfortunately not true.  Many of the horrific, terrifying stories are never heard, and if they are it is from the perspective of "the system", usually portrayed through the media, sympathizing with the state and her agents.  Mostly, these stories go untold and stay unknown.  

 

That all of this destructive family-severance can be instigated through a SINGLE, ANONYMOUS claim from someone that abuse or neglect is occurring goes against the very foundation of our legal and societal system.  That a private, federally-funded entity has been given the unchecked power to enter the home with the force of law (police power) and rip children from the arms of parents based solely only conjecture and some anonymous accusation is a disgusting reflection on the apathy of America's people.  

 

Do we no longer value the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States of America?  There better be AMPLE evidence to back up the accusations of neglect or abuse, and it better be enough to show that IMMINENT danger is present in order to remove children from their parents, the guardians assigned by God.  If the guilt is not proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to an IMPARTIAL jury of our peers, then it is unlawful, and it is a high crime against the entire fabric of our society.  Study history if you need further understanding as to why this one of the most basic requirements of a free society.    

davidmpark
davidmpark

We worked with DCFS a few months ago and they seemed sensible compared to this story. We were getting threats from some family to take our kids away, but Child Protection said they had no case unless there were police reports, or the children were in immediate danger. Instead, they sent us over to Adult Protection as the written threats from family were geared towards my wife, who has a severe brain injury, and sent cease and desist notice to the family members who were causing problems.

 

Ms. Sommerfeld should talk to the folks I dealt with - they seemed competent and sensible. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts it was that it was mostly Judge Noonan that decreed all this garbage to happen. There are also numerous good lawyers that will take on her case pro bono. DCFS and their branches went through an overhaul resulting from the last election and after numerous legal and ethics complaints; so they'll behave with the right pressure.

 

We citizens need to keep pressuring the State to fix things; especially with this situation. Justice must be done.

Living in a muppet world
Living in a muppet world

I know that there are very good people who work for the system.  However, through personal experience, because my adopted daughter threw a cell phone at a police officer while in 7th grade, having received the phone from a really bad kid who graduated from high school who gave it to her so they could secretly meet, I know that there are zealous screwballs who can cause some serious harm. 

My daughter had reactive attachment disorder.  This is a disorder that occurs throughout the earth on children who have been traumatized and have had multiple care givers.  They are the most convincing when they are lying.  When they are telling the truth they are sketchy.  

The judge put us under state supervision because I asked for it in order to get help and access to the counseling that I was told would be some of the best in the state.  What a disaster.  The judge died in the process, and I assumed that DCFS had the case facts from the justice system, showing that I asked for help, and how this all came about.  The truth is they knew nothing or very little because it is unlawful to share information between those agencies in many instances, and this was one.  So after 1.5 years of dumbo vs. dumbo and 4 case workers 3 judges, 2 gals etc. it finally dawned on me to ask them if they understood what happened to get her in DCFS?  By the time it got to the 4th caseworker everything was out of control.  I had to call the higher ups and threaten to call the governor’s office to investigate this fiasco.  It ended costing me over $5,000.00 because she was court ordered into a mental hospital, that is now shut down for violations (great).  Her treatment was over $300.00 a day.  But, $1,000.00 a month was killing me.  Still I was required to take her to the doctor as she was pregnant, etc.  With no reimbursement for that, even though I was paying full child support.  There are good people and those of you who are offended offend me.  DCFS is not perfect.  It did not help us as implied.  And even though there are good people, there are not so good ones as well, and if you don’t acknowledge that basic fact, then it is you who we need to fear by rights and reason.  

davidmpark
davidmpark

So long as the paperwork exists to prove it all, yes; she should sue everyone involved for her kids back and a small fortune: the ex's, the parents, the State of Utah, DCFS, her lousy lawyer, etc, etc.

search4commonsense
search4commonsense

If this article was an attempt to question the system, it did a poor job. It left me wondering why both sides of the story were not presented. It provided no insight into where the state derives its power to invade the family, its proper role in doing so, or what limitations are, or should be imposed in its powers. This article simply left me questioning the credibility of the mother and the motive of its author.

Myk Slads
Myk Slads

There's nothing wrong with trying to improve DCFS.  I'm not saying this mom is guilty or innocent in this case.  I do not have the full story.  I have to laugh though.  You still do not have the full story.  You've bought a wonderful art set to paint her story in the light you have presented to everyone.  Too bad DCFS isn't legally allowed to publish all their findings on this mom, and other moms you have painted out to be the victim, without fully knowing the facts from all sides.  If you truly knew the facts, you might be up in arms against this mom and other parents.  But, I understand you have an agenda and will paint whatever picture you want to get your followers to agree.  You will paint whatever picture you want to further your cause.

IsaacStanfield
IsaacStanfield

 @Myk Slads Again, you don't seem to be understanding the point. There was no claim that this was an attempt to present multiple sides of a story. It doesn't seem that hard to understand.

IsaacStanfield
IsaacStanfield

The naysayers are missing the point. I don't think was supposed to be an objective look at a particular case, but rather an attempt to question the legitimacy of a system that allows families to be legally severed so easily. What is the origin of this right claimed by the state?

Frustrated by this
Frustrated by this

I work for the 4th District Juvenile Court, (literally, the court referenced in this article) and find this article personally offensive.  Every single person I work with has chosen this profession, hoping we can make a positive difference in the lives of those we serve.  It is extremely frustrating to see parents so vocal against "the system" when the system literally/legally cannot defend itself.  I guarantee you if the other side of this "story" could be given, most people would probably be more understanding of what actually took place.

 

In addition to being personally offended there are a few details which make me believe there is a bias in this article:

 

 1)  The terminology used is inaccurate.  In the 4th District, we don't use "District Attorney's".  AT ALL.  We refer to them as County Attorney's.  It is that way in Wasatch, Utah, Juab and Millard counties which makes up the 4th District.  If such a simple detail can be inaccurately reported I seriously question everything else.

 

2)  Mostly, I find the timing of this article very suspect when the GAL John Moody was just selected as one of the final five nominees to replace Judge Lindsay when she retires at the end of this year (2013).

 

 

Angrymother
Angrymother

@Frustrated by this we have been in the 4th district juvenile court and have experienced every part of this corruption. It is there, if you deny it you are blind or a part of it. The judges in 4th district are criminal. Wake up, or one day you'll find you're mixed up in complete corruption (assuming you really don't know), and you will be equally as guilty as those destroying lives from the bench.

Melinda Sleight
Melinda Sleight

The "poor system" that can't defend itself.  Seriously?  Is your last name Noonan?

TraciWiley
TraciWiley

Your lack or knowledge makes me sick, maybe you should be someone with kids that has been taken away for no reason. I left my husbands after 17 yrs of abuse. Then the judge gave my four children to my husband the man that was abusive. 2 months later DCFS took my children claiming i was mentally sick because of long term sexual abuse and a rape that occured a yr prior. I was made to drug test although i had never used!! i worked two jobs and went to class sevrals hours a week and every time i completed a new class another was thrown in my lap. after almost 2 yrs i have my children back only because my mother there foster parents didnt want them. but im wondering Mr. Fustrated how much money are your kids worth or do you even have any?  @frustrated 

 

Angrymother
Angrymother

@frustratedbythis if you do your research you'll find this is one of multiple stories written like this, all before the coming appointment of a new judge. And it will be far from the last. Our stories (those of each injured family who has been denied due process rights and had their freedoms trampled while so called judges tore them apart) are, and will be, coming out. It is my hope that it will soon be the nation that will know of the corruption of the 4th district juvenile court.

CandySheppard
CandySheppard

Utah courts are trying to take away my grandson and I can tell you. Utah courts are full of bullies.  My son & I had limited contact with baby momma, about every 6 months.  Baby momma committed suicide almost 3 months ago. We received no court papers or calls, until the last minute.  So court is accusing my son of not caring about his child.  I don't know what to do. We want custody but can not find any help and can't afford a lawyer.

if anybody thinks they can help find me on FB

Stonefox78
Stonefox78

@CandySheppard good luck at court Tuesday - I don't know you but I'm praying for you!

Damone
Damone

What nonsense.  This sounds like a novel, and is as long as one too.  I won't buy into this until I read someone else's side.  Not sure why you would even post this without at least ATTEMPTING to get in touch with someone else in this story--there sure are many of them, and they all sound like attention whores.  Should've been easy. 

search4commonsense
search4commonsense

So both ex-husbands were abusive, her parents were abusive, her siblings were abusive.  And then the children's father and his disabled wife conspired with the police, DCFS, and the courts to have her parental rights terminated. The doctor who believes in her ends up dead.  The kids are brainwashed by the system and their father to make allegations against her.  And there is absolutely no comment in this story from anyone but the mother ("victim").  Unbelievable.... no really, this article lacked even an ounce of objectivity.

Living in a muppet world
Living in a muppet world

 @search4commonsense It’s called a snowball.  It is how it appears to her, and once the ball rolls it gets bigger and out of control and people do treat her differently because they know they can get away with it.  People can be very unkind to victims.  Ironic, because they need the help the most.  Yes, doctors die, people die, and the judge who was helping my family died right before we were supposed to meet with her.  Both husbands can and most likely are abusive, and she more than likely is a participant in her own abuse because it is all she knows.  Please be kind and do not judge her. 

Stonefox78
Stonefox78

@Living in a muppet world @search4commonsense I definitely don't want to judge without the whole story, but I think given the history two abusive husbands, abusive brother and her claiming she was abused as a child (no claim of who the abuser was), moving into a home she KNEW had abuse issues after leaving one, then an attempted suicide while in custody of her children, we can see how the DFCS would think maybe she isn't the best person to have these children, you can see how the biological father and his "disabled" wife might be a better choice, how given the unstable environment of the children's lives they might be tempted to go along with anything that might make these current care giver happy for fear of retribution. this Mother created that environment through her actions, she continues to make bad choice and poor decisions continuously throughout the beginning of the story. During this entire interview I did not detect one bit of her ownership in the responsibility for where her children have ended up. I am sorry but as a mother from a non traditional upbringing, I feel like you are always responsible for how your life and those of your children is maintained. I mean why not get your own apartment and a job instead of wasting time on a massage therapy school? Honestly how is that career path bettering your odds ? Why move to a county you know your "psycho" ex-husband lives in? why move back in with an abusive family? Life is about choices, and making choices that are not easy or fun is part of and the responsibility of the parent. I'm not saying I think that she is lying or dishonest, or that the system always works as it should, but in all fairness what was she thinking swallowing a mouth full of pills while her kids didn't know where they where going to sleep that night? I am not a supporter of social agencies for many reasons, but clearly these kids were not in a good environment with her, and their situation didn't improve with their father. It's just to bad that more follow up with the children wasn't done, but obviously given the abuse escapades taking place it doesn't sound like much time was spent worrying about their safety more time was spent between many selfish adults worrying about proving who was right and who was lying. I feel terrible for these kids, but not their mother her choices led to their demise not DFSC or the Judge which by the way, should have ABSOLUTELY recused herself from the case.

Daniel B
Daniel B

Have you guys looked into her claims beyond the interview? How have you verified her story? 

This is Ridiculous
This is Ridiculous

@Daniel B I doubt it. Every story like this that I have heard always becomes more understandable when you actually know the facts. But that would ruin emotion behind this!

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